LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Republicans and Democrats could not agree on a plan to fund the government.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Democrats have pushed to include extensions of healthcare subsidies in the spending bill. Republicans say they're open to negotiations only after a bill is passed.
FADEL: Yeah. For more than 2 million federal workers, it's creating uncertainty. Some are being told they might not get their jobs back at all.
MARTÍNEZ: For more, we're joined by NPR's Andrea Hsu. So, first off, what does the shutdown mean for the services people get from the government?
ANDREA HSU, BYLINE: Yeah. Well, even during a shutdown, some things do carry on. For example, your mail will still be delivered, retirees will still get their social security checks, and if you go to the airport, you'll still see the TSA officers at the security checkpoints. And the Trump administration has made clear border patrol and immigration and customs enforcement officers will remain on the job. But many, many more federal employees will not be working, A. Typically, people are given up to half a day to close down their computers and do whatever else needs to be done for an orderly shutdown.
MARTÍNEZ: And they're not getting paid.
HSU: That's right. And even most essential workers who are working won't be paid during the shutdown. This became a problem last time in late 2018, early 2019, when the government was shut down for those 35 days. After a while, you had TSA officers calling out sick because, you know, A, some people just can't go that long without a paycheck. Now, Congress did pass a law in 2019 mandating that federal employees get back pay once a shutdown is over. But this time, as you said, there have been threats from the White House that many federal workers could be outright fired during this shutdown.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah, tell us more about that.
HSU: Yeah. Well, last week, the White House Office of Management and Budget told federal agencies they should consider issuing reduction in force or RIF notices to employees who are working on things that aren't consistent with the president's priorities, meaning they would not be brought back when the government reopens. But even if some agencies opt to do this, it doesn't mean people are going to be fired today or tomorrow, necessarily. There are really complicated procedures for conducting RIFs. Federal statute requires that the government workers be given 60 days notice, for one thing. The White House has said that the staff handling RIFs are allowed to work through the shutdown, so it's possible we could see some notices go out.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, what are you hearing from federal employees about, you know, possibly being fired and then not brought back to work?
HSU: Yeah. Well, yesterday, unions representing federal employees filed a lawsuit over this. They called the threats of mass layoffs during the shutdown an unlawful abuse of power by the Trump administration. They said it was aimed at punishing workers and pressuring Democrats in Congress to essentially cave. Now, the White House did not respond to our request for comment about this lawsuit. Meanwhile, you have some federal employees saying this threat of being laid off at any moment, that this is nothing new. Jenna Norton, a scientist with the National Institutes of Health, talked about this at a press conference on Monday. She was among several feds who spoke in their personal capacity, and here's what she said.
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JENNA NORTON: As a federal worker, I am here to tell you that every awful thing that would happen in a shutdown - shuttering programs that Americans rely on, damaging our economy, firing federal workers, all of this is already happening.
HSU: And, A, there have been numerous lawsuits challenging all those things - firings, dismantling of programs and whole agencies. And while lower courts have temporarily paused many of those actions, the Supreme Court has in multiple instances allowed the Trump administration to move forward, at least for now.
MARTÍNEZ: How will we know if there are indeed mass firings?
HSU: Well, I suspect we'd hear from employees themselves, but also, federal agencies are required to notify labor unions and states ahead of mass layoffs. The Trump administration has not always followed these rules, but they might do so this time.
MARTÍNEZ: That's NPR's Andrea Hsu. Thanks a lot, Andrea.
HSU: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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