MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Let's go to Tel Aviv for reaction to President Trump's new peace plan for Gaza. On the line with me now is a man accustomed to working in the shadows - Israeli spymaster Yossi Cohen. He ran Israel's Mossad intelligence agency from 2016 to 2021, and he has a book out titled "The Sword Of Freedom." In it, he touches on everything from Gaza to his role in trying to sabotage Iran's nuclear program to tradecraft and how Mossad spies. Yossi Cohen, welcome.
YOSSI COHEN: Thank you very much for having me.
KELLY: Start with this U.S. plan. As you know, it calls for Hamas to release Israeli hostages within 72 hours, for Israeli forces to withdraw within 72 hours and for the war to end immediately. Briefly, what's your assessment? Could this work?
COHEN: Well, I think that this should work. And I hope that Hamas will not be mistaken and not receiving this very needed plan - I mean, for all sides - majorly because of the release of the hostages on our side and the end of war on both ends. And I think this is something that we are looking for for so, so long. On the Gaza Strip arena - I mean, the local thing that Hamas is still holding - I think this is going to be a major change in which...
KELLY: This is my question. Why would Hamas support this plan when they would have to give up hostages and they would have no stake in the power-sharing agreement over Gaza?
COHEN: Because, to my understanding, I think that the alternative for them is so much worse because we will not let go, I mean, before the end of the war's declaration that is connected completely to the release of all hostages. So if the remaining of Hamas - and I'm not sure how many are they, but they are much less than they were on October 7 - is willing to survive in the coming weeks and months, and before the winter is coming, they have to agree to this agreement or to this very interesting offer. If not, I know for sure that the state of Israel will chase them till the last one. And for them, as an alternative, this is - I mean, to my judgment, is worse.
KELLY: A question related to Gaza and its future and what will count as victory in Gaza for Israel - you note in the very beginning pages of your book that you reject claims of genocide and war crimes in Gaza.
COHEN: Correct.
KELLY: The death toll in Gaza has now climbed - it's higher than 66,000 people. Do you appreciate how to much of the world that does look like Israel's response has not been proportional?
COHEN: Well, I don't think that the state of Israel has conducted any genocide, and I'm sure we do not - and more than that, I know that the state of Israel since I've worked with...
KELLY: Sixty-six thousand dead, many of them civilians.
COHEN: Yeah, you know what's happening? Partially because if the numbers are right - and I'm not sure who published these numbers - but assuming that the numbers are correct or close to correct...
KELLY: That's per the Gaza Health Ministry.
COHEN: ...The state of Israel - probably the problem is that Hamas has confiscated all of Gazan citizens some 20 years ago. And still then - and since then, Hamas is controlling all their territories and all the civil entities and houses.
KELLY: And I hear you putting the blame squarely on Hamas. Without giving Hamas a pass in any way, I guess my question again is, has Israel's response been proportional in Gaza?
COHEN: I think that we do. I think that we have worked very tightly with the international law that is very well known to us, keeping everything that we have to do so to make sure that the Gazan people will be saved. But the number of Gazan people are still growing along the years. So genocide is not something that we cherish, that the state of Israel have never declared - a kind of a terrible thing, and we will never do that.
KELLY: One year ago - this is September 2024 - as you know, thousands of pagers began exploding near simultaneously in Lebanon. These were pagers that belonged to members of Hezbollah. And then the next day, while the funeral was underway for the people who had died, there were more explosions. How long, Yossi Cohen, does an operation like that take to plan?
COHEN: Twenty years or so - practically, the first operation that was activated already in Lebanon against Hezbollah that is based on knowing what the supply chain is and what it needs, and manipulated equipment, was all ready in 2006. And the pagers, yes, part of the walkie-talkies, part of other elements that we've sold to Hezbollah were a very, very big campaign that I'm so happy we've used it to conquer the mission to annihilate or to eliminate more terrorists on the Hezbollah side and to bring it...
KELLY: You're talking about - forgive my leaping in. You're talking about supply chains. There was also information warfare underway here as well. I have read that Hezbollah was only using these old-school pagers and walkie-talkies because they'd been warned to stay off their smartphones because they were being tracked.
COHEN: Correct. We understood their needs, and we understood what they're worried about. And then - seriously so - we've offered our help, but they didn't know that the hand offering the help is the Mossad's long arm.
KELLY: I think I just heard you say you're very happy about the operation, that it was long-planned and that it was a success from your perspective. I will note dozens of people died. Thousands were wounded. Was it worth it?
COHEN: I'm not - happiness is not something that I'm used when I operate. I mean, there is a huge need. And many people are dying because they were terrorists. Anyone that was holding either a walkie-talkie or pager is a terrorist designated even in the USA...
KELLY: Yes...
COHEN: ...Belong to Hezbollah.
KELLY: Although as you know, some of the casualties included children and medical workers as well. It was not...
COHEN: I'm not sure about that.
KELLY: That has been documented by international observers. I guess the question...
COHEN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Again, was it worth it?
COHEN: You know, I mean, when you have such a filthy enemy on your borders, and when the enemy eventually is shooting rockets on daily basis on our citizens, without any kind of definition between citizens and IDF soldiers, I think that this is the right time to hit back. And I think that we've done the right thing to counter terrorism, and we've countered terrorists only.
KELLY: One more question on the news, and it has to do with Iran and the extent of the damage that U.S. and Israeli bombing of Iran's nuclear program did. The American president, President Trump, repeated yesterday that the nuclear program in Iran was obliterated - his word. Do you agree?
COHEN: Yes, totally agree.
KELLY: How do you square that, Yossi Cohen, with reports that Iran is actually increasing work at an underground site near the Natanz nuclear facility that was hit by strikes in June? This is new satellite imagery.
COHEN: I didn't see these reports, but if this is what Iran's doing, we'll come again. I hope we will.
KELLY: Yossi Cohen - he's the former director of Mossad, the Israeli espionage agency. His new book is "The Sword Of Freedom: Israel, Mossad, And The Secret War." Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to speak with you.
COHEN: Thank you very much.
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