SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
The United Nations formally declared famine in Gaza this past week and warned that over 500,000 people are facing catastrophic starvation. The executive director of the U.N.'s World Food Programme, Cindy McCain, has just been on the ground in Gaza. She also visited Israel, which controls all humanitarian entry into Gaza. Cindy McCain, welcome to the program.
CINDY MCCAIN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
DETROW: I want to start with this. You were in Deir al-Balah in the center of the Gaza Strip, where you visited a nutrition clinic. What did you see and hear from people there?
MCCAIN: Well, what I saw - I had the opportunity, actually, to sit down with a family that had come all the way from the north on down into Deir al-Balah. There were 11 of them. You know, I heard their stories. I heard the difficulties that they've had. And I also heard the difficulties that they're having trying to acquire food.
What I saw were pictures that they brought with them, and they were like before and after. I looked at the pictures of the family and then saw them in person. And, of course, there's this distinct and stark difference as to how much they weighed and how healthy they looked prior to now.
DETROW: What did they tell you about their access to food?
MCCAIN: It's been very difficult. You know, some places they could access a little more than others. Some places they couldn't access at all. It was hit and miss, quite frankly. And a large part of that is because we have been unable to get in at scale. And that's the - those are the things I've been talking about, is making sure we can get our trucks in at scale, get them in unfettered and also get them in safely.
DETROW: I want to talk about all of those aspects in detail. But I do want to ask about one thing that's a big part of this story, and that's the fact that Israel pushed back on the idea there is mass starvation. The response to that report was that this is a, quote, "lie." How did that square with what you saw?
MCCAIN: Well, what our people have seen and what we've experienced is clear starvation. We're seeing that on the ground. I saw it with my own eyes. Again, the important part of this is we've been asking for - repeatedly - complete and full access at scale. During the last ceasefire, we had over 200 feeding stations and almost 600 trucks a day going in. That's a stark difference from what we have going in now.
DETROW: What's going in right now? What's the best way to frame it?
MCCAIN: From our - from WFP's standpoint, we're getting about a hundred trucks in a day. But part of the problem is we don't have access to the roads that can take us to where the most difficult regions are, where people truly are seriously hungry.
DETROW: I want to talk about safety on two different fronts. One is a point that both the U.S. government and the Israeli government have made, claiming that Hamas is taking food aid that's getting in. What's your understanding of that?
MCCAIN: Well, what I have seen are very seriously hungry people. If you're alluding to the trucks and what occurs at our trucks going in...
DETROW: Yeah.
MCCAIN: ...When you have a clearance ability to only get trucks in a few feet past the gate, and then are forced to wait seven, eight, 10, 18 hours sometimes, people panic. They come, they see the trucks, they want food immediately. And that's what happens. If we could get in, get in at scale and continually get in, people will know that they will have access to food, and that relieves the panic that's going on.
DETROW: So you're saying more trucks would be one step toward making this...
MCCAIN: Yes.
DETROW: ...Safer, making the trucks safer. Can you tell me what the World Food Programme has under its control to keep the trucks safe and what the Israeli government or other forces could do to keep these trucks safe?
MCCAIN: Well, as you know, our mandate says that we do not use armed individuals either on our trucks or around our trucks as we go in. You know, we have a tried-and-true process of how to do this. We work with the community leaders. In turn, they are the ones that kind of control the people in their neighborhoods, etc., and were able to get in. But again, you know, if you see trucks waiting and they can't get in, you're going to go after it, too, if you're hungry.
As to whether Hamas is getting it, I really can't answer that question. What we see are very seriously hungry people.
DETROW: A lot of this is up to the Israeli government. You met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv after...
MCCAIN: Yes.
DETROW: ...Your visit to Gaza. How did those conversations go? Did you feel like he was listening to what you were saying?
MCCAIN: Yes, I did. The conversations were very good. He listened to our asks and listened to what problems we've had. And I think they really were seriously intent on making things try to work with us and make sure that we are able to do the things that we need to do to feed people.
DETROW: What did he say when you made the case that you just made just now - I assume you did - that you just need more trucks getting into Gaza?
MCCAIN: He agreed with me. He said he - we understand. We're going to try to make this happen. You know, this was not a meeting that was in any way antagonistic. It was just a meeting of - I'm not sure that he knew how much we could do. And one of the processes is how we track and trace the food once it gets in there 'cause they are worried about it winding up in the hands of Hamas.
And we have an incredibly serious, complex way that we do that, and we've been doing it for years. We can follow the food. We follow the families that get the food. You know, we have lists of names. We have a million and a half people on this roll that we have. So it's - as far as we're concerned, we have the ability to do this. We just need to be allowed to do it.
DETROW: That is Cindy McCain, the executive director of the United Nations World Food Programme. Thank you so much for talking to us.
MCCAIN: Thank you. My pleasure. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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